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27 AUGUST 2014

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Topic: Calzaghe retires and leave his curriculum incomplete
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MaximilianoHe
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MaximilianoHe (17 Posts) on Sun 1-Mar-2009:

I am disappointed about Calzaghe announcement of retirement.
I don t think he has proven everything...
Of course he is a terrific fighter and arguably he could have been regarded the best european fighter ever IF he would have had in his curriculum something better than a split decision against a 43 years old Hopkins (coming from a lower weight class) , victory against the ghost of the once Roy Jones and before the best opponent he had faced was Michael Kessler, which is a discrete fighter but I am afraid he is 1 million miles away to be a all time star of boxing.
So what we have in Calzaghe's curriculum to state he is one of the best fighters ever or the best european fighter ever ?
Very little indeed, but he could have really been ...that s makes me disappointed.
Calzaghe should have faced Chad Dawson,,,that was a real test, taking a young and promising champion , beat him convincly and taking th light-heavy title...
Just one fight...But he gave up...
I really wonder if Calzaghe would have beaten Dawson....I am not really sure, very possible, but not sure...and now we will never know that and Joe will not be regarded as the best european fighter...
Joe, if you read my text,....come back ! and fight Dawson ! Just 1 more fight and that s it ...all your last cristics will dissipate for sure.


Lukerich24
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Lukerich24 (16 Posts) on Sun 8-Mar-2009:

You are having a laugh! Dawson is decent, but not as good as the 43 year old Hopkins that embaressed Pavlik. There is no question Calzaghe would of obliterated Dawson.

Kessler will dominate at and around that weight now Joe has gone, people don't seem to quite realise how good he is.

The whole dissing Joe for not fighting quality purely pisses me off. Hopkins is regarded as an all time great yet was beaten twice by Tailor, who scraped past Lacy, who was battered by JC.

People say why dint he fight RJJ or Hopkins in their prime, simple answer when they were in their prime Joe wasnt as well known. It didnt make financila sense for them to fight him in terms of risk and reward and subsequently they ducked him.

Joe doesnt get the credit he deserves and the fact that u would even dare to question whether he would beat an average fighter (many believe lost to old man Johnson) proves u have no idea how good JC is. Joe could of gone to heavyweight and beaten Vitali Klitchko (I know not really) and people stateside would still come out with some thing like "yeah but he never moved down and fought Mayweather" lol.

To question Joes quality or record beggars belief from a rational person. Why don't we criticise any fighter who dosnt fight the top ten in every 2 weight classes either side of them, cos thats what seems to happen to JC. AGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! This drives me crazy, I think Mohammed Ali should be brought out of retirement cos he hasn't beaten David Haye and if he hasn't done that his record means nothing!!!!!!!


MaximilianoHe
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MaximilianoHe (17 Posts) on Mon 9-Mar-2009:

You also make me laugh a lot.
Kessler is nothing more than a discrete fighter, in matter of historical fighter is a NOBODY.
Dawson is an unbeaten light heavyweight champion who would be dangerous for Calzaghe, because his weight too. Who said Dawson lost that match ?
An idiot or an incompetent or a blind man for sure !

You also missed a point in my post: that s because I am sure Calzaghe is an amazing fighter and he deserves all credit, he should have fought more big fights to prove it.
I think I know Calzaghe quite well, since I have watched at least 25 of his fights !
That s why I would be happy to see he kicking the asses of even bigger fighters like Dawson , because I would like to see him regarded as the best European fighter ever.

Do you understand my point now ?
In an eventual Calzaghe-Dawson I would give Calzaghe 60% chance of winning.
Dawson is dangerous because he is very fast hand and very heavy hand at the same time, which is rare for a light heavyweight.


jolas
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jolas (6 Posts) on Mon 9-Mar-2009:

calzaghe has never amaze the world of boxing..but i gave him the credit of beating some of the boxing greats...for no exemptions he can only be regarded as the boxing worlds "AGING KILLER"..WHY?,cause he only beats those fighter on their way to retirment,so sad but true. 


jolas
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jolas (6 Posts) on Mon 9-Mar-2009:

calzaghe has never amaze the world of boxing..but i gave him the credit of beating some of the boxing greats...for no exemptions he can only be regarded as the boxing worlds "AGING KILLER"..WHY?,cause he only beats those fighter on their way to retirment,so sad but true. 


Lukerich24
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Lukerich24 (16 Posts) on Mon 9-Mar-2009:

I did understand what you were saying and realised u were giving JC smoe credit, however I treated your opinion that his curriculum is lacking through not fighting Dawson with the contempt it deserves.

If Dawson evewr meets Kessler or Hopkins (anytime soon b4 father time catches up with him), I shall be straight down the betting shop, had he faced Calzaghe I would of withdrew my life savings before I went.


Lukerich24
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Lukerich24 (16 Posts) on Mon 9-Mar-2009:

Oh in terms of Kessler being a "discrete fighter" give him time once he has dominated for a few years the penny will drop with you. When JOnes first fought Hopkins he didnt have a big reputation, but since then it has been realised what an amazing display that was.


Rain
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Rain (8 Posts) on Wed 11-Mar-2009:

I think the Kessler victory is being underated, but I do agree that Calzaghe hasn't really proved himself aginst top level prime competition. His career seems to revolve around good timing.

I think he is being overated due to his undefeated record, a bit like Marciano. Not that I think he is a poor fighter because his workrate and movement would be a problem for most, I just dont think he matches up well to others in and around his weight.


Lukerich24
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Lukerich24 (16 Posts) on Wed 11-Mar-2009:

I would admit Bhop has faced and beated better opposition, but Calzaghe beat him when skill wise he was at his best if not physically.

O.k. would anyone here say RJJ has faced better opposition than JC, yet he is viewed sometimes as the second coming of SRR lol.

I maintain if Joe was American his record would never be questioned and he would be rated as by far the best Super Middle to ever live.


Rain
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Rain (8 Posts) on Thu 12-Mar-2009:

RJJ definately has a better legacy, he outclassed BHop with one hand and dominated James Toney, two ATGs and was the first man since Fitzsimmons to win the heavyweight title after starting at middleweight (albeit against the weakest champ). Big question marks over the Michalecheski (sp?) fight that didnt happen but overall he has a better resume.


It not a UK v USA thing for me because I'm from saaaff London, I view Mayweathers career the same, his undefeated record doesnt mean much because he has made his way through the weights avoiding the stiffest challenges, he will probably come back to fight the winner of Hatton Pac but he wont want no part of Mosley or Williams, yet he has the audacity to say he is better than SRR a man who fought Jake LaMotta twice in a month.

Johnboy
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Johnboy (58 Posts) on Thu 12-Mar-2009:

When you get down to it, there is nothing Joe or anyone can do to persuade Calzaghe-detractors of his greatness. Think about who these people are. When Joe beats Hopkins, it is because Hopkins is washed up... oh, but wait! Hopkins went out and beat Pavlik! Ergo, Pavlik must be a nobody... see how this twisted logic works? You can see the same thing going on with RJJ. Anyone who was around 10 years ago knows that RJJ moved up to 175 at the time Calzaghe was starting out as a champion at 168. To say Calzaghe ducked Jones is ridiculous, especially when it was Jones and not Calzaghe who had the promotional power of HBO at his back, and could make most any fight happen.


I state my entire case for The Pride of Wales in the following profile:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1457130/undefeated_the_joe_calzaghe_story.html


Blunderbuss
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Blunderbuss (13 Posts) on Mon 30-Mar-2009:

As ive said before with joe his career has been a disappointment from a spectators point of view because he simply hasnt tested himself enough over the years.

Ok in recent years hes been taking the big fights, but its too little too late. his career after beating eubank for years, reid aside was shocking.

The real shame is that joe probably is the greatest super middleweight of all time but we have all been robbed of the chance to see him confirm it.

Im afraid thats boxing all over, far too many fighters making millions and not fighting their main rivals.


robbyheart
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robbyheart (7 Posts) on Fri 3-Apr-2009:

MaximilianoHe you have no idea. Calzaghe is one of the best super middle weights of all time, why are you even bringing up Chad Dawson? that guy struggled to win a decision over Glen Johnson and can hardly be considered great. You play down his victory over Bernard Hopkins at 43 yrs of age. THE SAME Bernard Hopkins that gave 26 yr old Kelly Pavlik a boxing lesson a few months later. Faded Roy Jones Junior? yes, yet the same Roy Jones that Junior Calzaghe chased for years, and RJJ was coming of a decisive win over Felix Trinidad! plus Calzaghe was 36! Calzaghe destroyed Jeff Lacy in his prime and Lacy has never been the same, he defeated Mikkel Kessler, gave him a boxing lesson, both of which were prime fighters AND undefeated. Calzaghe is 37 and has NOTHING to prove to anyone, especially not the idiotic Amercian boxing public. And what a brilliant boxer he was with a pristine record of 46-0. He is most certainly one of the greatest of all time, and i thank him for some memorable fights. Thank you Joe! 


MaximilianoHe
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MaximilianoHe (17 Posts) on Fri 3-Apr-2009:

I don t agree at all.

Calzaghe 46 fights , 45 of them against NOBODIES,GHOSTS and CLOWNS.

The only great one was Bernard Hopkins, at 43 yo, after a controversial split decision.

Calzaghe is the greatest super middleweight ever, yes, i said that and i am sure about that, but i think you didn t read my post or maybe my or your english is not good enough.

i Said THAT Calzaghe curriculum is TOO POOR to being considered the best european fighter ever , it is a pity coz I feel he was good enough to be the considered the best european fighter in all times all categories.

That is mean I have great great consideration of him...but let' s have a look at curricula like guys like Leonard,Duran,Manny Pacquiao,Whitaker,etc etc..

 

their curricula are FULL of incredible and epic fights in many different categories...

 

Calzaghe has wasted 95% of his career fighting opponenents who weren t good enough to be sparring partners.

 

Don t be ridicolous ! Jeff Lacy, ?? Who is him ? I would ko myself.

I said Chad Dawson coz it would have been a great opportunity for Calzaghe to catch the light-heavyweight belt and than move on to fight on cruise or heavyweight. Why not ?

 

James Toney could become heavyweight champ starting from middleweight, why Calzaghe is not able to jump a bloody single category ??

 

And you tell me he has nothing to prove ?? He has just proven to be an almost unbeatable super-middleweight , that s it, that s far to prove he has been the best european fighter ever.

 

Read my post more carefully and maybe you will catch what i really meant to say

 


Cestrian
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Cestrian (82 Posts) on Fri 3-Apr-2009:

MaximilianoHe your a idiot !

Calzaghe in his time he has beaten 13 past and current world champs without been beaten. Yeah he could fight Chad but there will always be another fight....

I think if he was born on the otherside of the pond you would be singing a different tune.


MaximilianoHe
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MaximilianoHe (17 Posts) on Fri 3-Apr-2009:

Hey son of a  ****, watch what you write ok ?

This is a forum and anybody can express his opinion. You don t need to offend.

 

Let me say again my humble opinion ok ?:

Calzaghe has been an AMAZING champion, but what i said his curriculum cannot be compared to the greatest curricula of gretest p4p of all times.

If he really has any interest of being regarded best european fighter EVER in ALL categories ,maybe he should have dropped his super middleweight belt before and go up to show he is great enough to take lightheavy and cruisebelt and maybe heavyweight belts.

 

If i say like that coz I really regard him as potentially the bst european fighter ever , i am showing more respect for Calzaghe than yourself and I am disappointed that he hasn t the opportunity to show us how great he could have been in other weight categories.

 

Supermiddleweight hasn t offered ANY valuable fighter to stand at his level, that s why i feel Joe has WASTED times to fight guys who had no minimal chance to stand against him.

 

I watched more than 25 fights of Joe, so I can say something even if i am not from Wales.

I said the same thing in the past for Floyd Mayweather, I would love to see him regarded the best p4p ever, but if he wants to be regarded the rwal best, he has to complete his curriculum by beating Marquez,Pacquiao (or Hatton again) and maybe beating Abraham and become middleweight champ. If he manages to do that, he will be N.1 ever .

 

The fighters i respect more are the fighters where I would see more great fights,...can you get me know ?

I think i regard Calzaghe better than you do, and I am not satisfied to have him regarded just as supermiddleweight fighter ever, I want more from him .

 

Is that ok now ?

 


Cestrian
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Cestrian (82 Posts) on Sun 5-Apr-2009:

Stop back tracking..... wiith your "I think i regard Calzaghe better than you do"

You have just started a thread full of you s**t canning every world champ he has beaten !

To quote some of your pearls of wisdom....

"Kessler is nothing more than a discrete fighter, in matter of historical fighter is a NOBODY."

And then my personel fav..

"Don t be ridicolous ! Jeff Lacy, ?? Who is him ? I would ko myself."

Then you go onto bang the drum that Joe will not go down as a great because he did not fight Chad.

I know styles makes fights but....Fact Chad Dawson was beaten by Glen Johnson but never got the nod.

Glen Johnson has beed beaten by Omar Sheika and Hopkins.... Both Joe Victims. You can also add to his list of Johnson beaters - Clinton Woods and Sven the protected Ottke who refused to get in the ring with him Joe but we all know what the outcome would have been as usre as night becomes day....

There will always be another fighter... the man can only fight who was put in front of him. Truth is yes Frank Warren was reluctant to through Joe in state side for peanuts, however no one wanted anything to do with him. Just to good.

You coulld keep pulling names of young new fighters at different weights out of the hat for the next 3 years until he looses...Time to go is now. Not when he has damaged his lagacy like the great RJ.

Kessler will go on to prove what a great victory that was... he would walk Chad & Johnson down and break them up.


MaximilianoHe
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MaximilianoHe (17 Posts) on Sun 5-Apr-2009:

My friend,I am not back tracking, I am trying to make myself understood.

If i am disappointed about  Calzaghe retirement is because I would have been happy to see him taking the light-heavy, cruise and maybe heavyweight belts.

Why ? Coz I admire him and I am not ok with him just being regarded as you say "one of the best of the best super middleweight champ ever" .

That s not enough for him.

I would like to have seen him regarded the best european fighter ever (you can look for my Ask the Editor past question few months ago).

the SAME disappointment to have seen my "hero" Floyd Mayweather going unbeaten into retirement...

Who is gonna regard Calzaghe the best european fighter ever ?

Who is gonna put Floyd amongst the best 5 or 10 fighters ever in all categories ?

Very few experts, and do you know why ?

Well, coz they should have foght more before retiring... maybe they didn t have the ambition some of their fans have for them...

Regarding other fighters,....ok that is a secondary issue...we can disagree , there is nothing bad on it, we don t have to agree on everything and maybe you are right i am overestimating Dawson, but the main issue is Calzaghe legacy and I am bothered coz i was enjoying seeing him kicking the asses of his opponents and I think he could have kicked asses of stronger opponents if he kept fighting.

I hope we can close the discussion friendly without insulting.  Opinions are opinions and fortunatelly we are not all thinking the same...there is room to disagree and discuss.

May Joe enjoy his retirement and his money...

But if he comes back and become lightweight and cruiseweight champion  I would be happy,maybe beating David Haye in UK too ! Why not ?

Wouldn t you love to see Calzaghe beating Haye in UK ?


Cestrian
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Cestrian (82 Posts) on Mon 6-Apr-2009:

I am more than happy close the discussion friendly without insulting.  Your quite right Opinions are opinions...

I think Joe has done enough by dominating at S/M before moving up and beating the man at L/H Bhop.
He picked up the Ring belt for that but more and more in recent years big fighters drop the belts to make the supper fights.

Everyone knows who the main man is at that weight, belts mean less and less and will continue to be devalued if the champs don’t try and fight each other to close out the division. Joe was the man at L/H after beating RJ and Bhop.

Having watched Joe for a long time ringside and on the box I can honestly say L/H was as big as he could go with his frame and fading KO power through problems with his hands.

He would get mashed up at C/W (even more so since they put the weight limit up half stone) a few years back and talk about him fighting Haye up at heavy.... well you just watch how hard the new 16 stone Haye bang in 2 months when he smashes 18 stone Wlad in 5.

Joe's dad (and trainer) once did an interview a few years back.... He said at the start of every training camp he gets the pads on and he has a good look at him to see if he is in decline. He said the minute he spots something they would have an honest chat.

Well at the end of the RJ fight/pay day his dad made it quite clear post fight straight away that was his last. Reading between the lines I think his dad new it had run its course.

He had nothing to prove getting in with fighter 4 stone bigger and 10 years younger he would have been just risking his health.

Time to go was now and he could do no more than rule at S/M and L/H. He joins Lenox going out when it was right with his feet up and health intact so he can enjoy his £ with his family. Good luck to him.


Blunderbuss
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Blunderbuss (13 Posts) on Tue 7-Apr-2009:

Calzaghe a cruiserweight no chance he was put on the floor in both his light heavyweight contests so that would be a step to far

light heavyweight at that stage of his career was the perfect weight for him.

for me its a waste of time getting to 46 and 0 when 3 fights on theres marcianos legacy to go for and the obvious 50 mark, its not like joe hadnt mentioned it, for me its another example of joe playing it safe as he did his whole career till the last year or so and taking the eubank fight out of the equation

not that i can really criticise anyone for dedicating their life to boxing but in terms of how people will remember him, Im afraid that anyone who isnt welsh will always have questions over his career

to say he was the man at l/h without facing tarver or dawson is wrong

his career was badly handled and im afraid that stigma will always be there which is a shame for joe who has been a great pro

 

 

 

 


Qid
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Qid (2 Posts) on Tue 7-Apr-2009:

Hi All

  I am a British fight fan and have never been a fan of Joe.  The reason is less to do with his fighting and more his attitude.  He has always beleived he is one of, if not THE best fighters who ever lived and has constently complained and critisised great fighters throughout his careeer for not fighting somone who only every fights in his back yard and was unwilling to take a chance by fighting abroad or moving out of super middle, which, wheather we like it or not, is a catch weight.

  Being the king of a catchweight and crying that someone like RJJ in his prime wont move weights and lose a good 1mil plus in fight mony over fighting someone well known in America to face a dangerous southpaw... Well of course not, no one would.

  I blame his managment mostly.  I think they have filled his head with silly ideas.  If he REALY wanted to fight RJJ he would have gone out to america and fought a few decent fighters, not greats, bit good fighters and moved to light heavy or Midle, where there are a LOT more decent fighters.  From there he would have built a name for himslef and put himslef in a position to challange a very top fighter.  As it was they kept him in England and enjoyed him ticking over with wins and keeping the cash rolling in.  Pretty much like what happend to Hatton, where his managment realy did not have the kind of confidence they did with a Prince Naseem and so kept him at home winning.  Hatton made the move while he was young enough, Joe didnt.

 

  Let me just finish with a couple of pointers.  I think Joe was on the way to somthing big until Robin Read very very very nearly beat him.  There was only a couple of rounds in it and after that there was a lull in opponents as confidence in him at the very top may have faded, just a theory.

A good exaple of joe swallowing his own BS is with Sven Ottka.  He actualy said that Ottka doesnt count as a champion because he wouldnt come out of Germany to fight Him in Britan... Erm Joe, think about what you just said there...   It wasnt worth doing it on nuetral ground, and his managment didnt want to go to Germany, fair enough. end of.


Marra
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Marra (21 Posts) on Tue 7-Apr-2009:

Calzaghe retired at the right time undefeated. People may say he played his career safe, but its well documented that calzaghe would fight anyone and offered invitations to like of jones in his better days. The problem was that the US boxers wouldn't cross the pond to face a champion in his own back yard for less money and the knowledge of the real possibilty of losing to calzaghe. In short calagze was just to dangerous a fight from them.

Calzaghe would have fought anyone, but was unwilling to leave home turf as he was a champion, so why should he leave his fans behind. Only later did he go to America, maybe just to show what he could do, but i suspect the main reason was for his retirement fund....go out against big names with a lot of money in your pocket.

As for him taking on Dawson....who is Dawson...
The man that managed to grind out a victory over Tarver because lets face it, tarver looked like an old man who could barely left his hands in that fight, he was beaten from the first bell as he didn't even look interested in the fight.
Dawson is/was just someone looking to make money of Joe and has a long way to go before he can be considered in the same class as calzaghe.

There has been alot said of kessler, and if i'm honest i think kessler is the bench mark, no one wants to give this guy the big fight, simply because HE is too dangerous, they are all skirting round him.
Put Dawson/Pavlik in a ring with kessler a very good boxer in his prime and if they win then i'll start taking note.

So at the end i don't think Joe had anything left to prove.


oeerys
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