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ATE: Khan/Katsidis And Haye Vs Klischko
In this week’s ATE SecondsOut readers ask the question, should the referee have stopped the recent Michael Kadsidis’s fight against Juan manuel Marquez, how great is Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather Jr and much more.
Name Jeff Sampson
I need clarification on the latest refereeing decisions. Michael Katsidis was stopped after being smashed for 30sec, but still throwing back. Yet, Khan gets smashed for 1:30 without even looking like throwing a punch and the fight goes on. Stopping a fight obviously at the discretion of a ref at that particular time I understand. Or is it the money in their pockets from outside influences. One of these refs got it wrong. Which one?
Thats a tough question, Jeff. I have to say it really does depend on the referee and the boxer in this situation. whether your at ringside or watching from home or tv you can’t possibly have a better view of a boxers condition than the referee. A referee has to trust his own judgement based on his past experience and knowing the history of the boxer on the receiving end of the punishment. For example some boxers have a reputation for soaking up the heaviest of punches and come back strong late in a fight, whereas others may have looked vulnarable in recent fights. A good referee will have done his homework and both boxers beforehand and act accordingly. I know that this does not answer your question. What I will say,though, If I was refereeing Amir Khan’s next fight i’d be watching him extra carefully considering the punishment he took against Maidana.
Being a referee is a tough job. He/she must make quick judgment calls. I doubt that they took money under the table, so I think they are both correct; they each looked at the situation at hand and made a call. Jeff you mentioned that one fighter was still punching and the other wasn’t at the time of stoppage. There is a point to be made here. I have often said that the unwritten (written?) rule that if he’s still punching don’t stop it is dangerous. Fighters punch by instinct. If they are out on their feet they may still throw punches. Referees must stop a fight based on the condition of the fighter, not whether he threw a punch.
Jeff, in boxing, the referee’s discretion is very powerful…as it should be, but it sure as heck raises controversy because of the human element involved…differing from referee to referee. I don’t think any outside influences played a role in the outcome of Katsidis-Marquez and/or Khan-Maidana, but for the record I thought the Katsidis stoppage was slightly premature and I was okay with Khan being allowed to continue fighting.
Name Ndumiso Mbele
Country South Africa
Your Question Gentlemen,The possibility that the two best boxers in the world right now might never face each other and the best in and around their division when it matters, saddens me. Mayweather has no right to claim to be an ALL-TIME great; he’s just great, nothing more. Pacquiao is humble enough not to claim the same. A closer inspection of Mayweather, Jr. and Pacquiao’s resumés, though glowing with multi-divisional world titles, lacks the depth and accomplishments of a Sugar Ray Leonard and a Roberto Duran, respectively. Can the absence of a Pacquiao, a Paul Williams, a peak Mosley, Cotto and Margarito be ignored when Mayweather Jr.’s career is measured against all time? What about Pacquiao’s failure to test himself against Mayweather, Jr., the devastating and now late Edwin Valero and a peak Joan Guzman or even the decisive Marquez III? I have often heard some boxing scribes argue that it is hard to compare boxing eras and that boxing is a business but fighters like Sugar Ray Leonard and other non-heavyweights earned record-breaking purses and still achieved greatness by fighting the best of their era when it mattered. Leonard, Duran, Hearns and Hagler had one another to catapult them to greatness. Between them they gave us some of the greatest battles and memories in boxing history. Who do Mayweather, Jr. and Pacquiao have?Considering the above, how would the SO team measure the two against all time, were their boxing careers to end right now?
Very good question Ndumiso. My opinion is whilst the record books will show Pacquiao as a multi weight world champion from flywweight to junior-middleweight and Maywweather Jr retire unbeaten but the real big ’Super-Fights’ will not appear in the record book, aside from Pacquiao’s triology with Erik Morales. The reason being I feel is the real lack of genuine ’Superstars’ to fight. For example Muhammad Ali had Joe Frazer and George Foreman, Ernie Shavers and Ken Norton help him achieve greatness while Sugar Ray Leonard,Tommy Hearns, Roberto Duran and Marvin Hagler had each other.
Good question. I too say it is hard to compare eras, but you must go with what you have. Ali had Frazier, Louis had Schmeling, Leonard had those you mentioned, Robinson had LaMotta, and so forth. It is always good for a great one to have another great to give him a defining fight. As good as Pacquiao’s opponents were he needs Mayweather and Floyd needs him. I think you would enjoy a book by a colleague of mine, George Kimball, called Four Kings. It’s about Leonard, Hearns, Duran, and Hagler.
Ndumiso, I think Mayweather Jr. and Pacquiao are both hall of famers who deserve recognition for different skill sets. Mayweather being deadly accurate with handspeed, great defensively and underrated power. Pacquiao carrying knockout power from 108 to 147 pounds is once-in-a-generation-type of talent. It’s a shame that they haven’t fought each other and might not ever, for that matter. Short of handicapping each guy against greats of the past; for me, they both measure high in all-time ranking.
Name Chris enzet
Your Question: I am starting to think now that Haye’s antics are wearing a bit thin.The facts here seem to be that Wladimir klitschko is pushing for the fight on his (normal) financial terms as he always is able to do, and the Haye camp feel they deserve more than that. Well David, I’m a big fan of yours but Wlad has been in the division for years and is established as the man (apart from his brother) to beat. The onus is on you to take the right fight and prove yourself - even if that means accepting on financial terms you don’t feel are fair. Otherwise Haye has no legacy in the heavyweight division - if you want to retire at 31, great - but that’s your issue, so if you want the legacy you claim - you’ll simply have to swallow it, take the terms on offer and knock him out.I wish you would, cos this is all quite boring now - and you risk looking like a lemon if it never happens. Take the fight - knock him out.
Spot on Chris. I’ve been saying this for ages now and to be honest i’m bored as well. I really would not have a problem with Haye ducking the Klitschko’s if he had not kept riding on the back of their names by insulting them, saying what he’s gonna do to them blah blah blah. I believe David is making up any excuse he can to avoid them. I totally agree with Greg. Beat one Klitschko then make derserved financial demands.
I can’t be sure what’s in Haye’s mind, but the situation reminds me a little bit of Ali and Ernie Terrell. They called Terrell the heavyweight pretender because he won the WBA belt when Ali was stripped for having a rematch with Liston. Terrell knew he had to fight Ali, but never quite looked like he really wanted it. When he finally did, Muhammad punished him for fifteen rounds. I think under his bravado, Haye seems a bit like Terrell.
Chris, I couldn’t agree with you more. Haye’s only concern should be getting one of the Klitschkos in the ring and proving his superiority. Once, and if, he beats a Klitschko, he can “call the shots” deserved of a legitimate heavyweight champion.
Name Barnaby Chesterman
Your Question Hi guys, what’s happened to ATE? I haven’t seen it for months? I want to know what you think of the Haye-Klitschko shenanigans. It seems to me that Haye really has the most to lose. Despite what he says he hasn’t achieved his goals as a heavyweight. Holding an alphabelt doesn’t mean anything, he’s not world champion. He has a pair of decent wins over top 10 heavies in Valuev and Ruiz but that’s it. Heavyweight champion he is not. He needs to beat both Klitschkos to be heavyweight champion. If he beats one he’ll be half-champion. And if he beats Wlad and Solis beats Vitali he’ll still only be half champion and need to beat Solis to be champion. Although I would tip the Klitschkos in both those fights. I don’t think much of Haye’s claim Sky couldn’t do a second PPV in April, or his claim that Wlad can’t fight in July having had two rounds stretching with Chisora in April (before knocking him out with his first angry punch). Is Haye’s ego getting in the way?
Barnaby, you could be right, David’s ego may not allow him to lose. The fact is David needs to fight one of them, nothing else matters to British boxing fans.
I think Haye will face a Klitschko, there is too much at stake. You are right, he needs them more than they need him. Problem is, he will lose to Wlad and maybe to Vitali too.
Barnaby, I’ll give Haye credit for his win over Valuev and his claim to the moniker of a heavyweight “titlist,” but he needs to beat a Klitschko before he can throw his ego around and celebrate the celebrity that comes with being a real heavyweight world champion. I, for one, would like to see Haye fight Vitali and/or Wladimir with an opportunity to shake things up in boxing’s glamour division. Right now, however, Haye is just wasting everyone’s time.
January 28, 2011